1. If David Asper makes a $40 million contribution to a facility that will be owned by the City of Winnipeg, is it considered a charitable donation? If this is true, in effect isn’t the government contribution to the project increased due to significant lost tax revenue?
2. What will the level of cross-subsidization be between the football team and the retail development Asper wants to build on the stadium site? Will losses from the Bomber operation be used to reduce taxes owing from the retail centre? Where is the business plan?
3. Who has had input on the design of the stadium? Asper has used the same drawings since before the Bombers gave him their blessing. Has the team had any input? Has there been any consultation with the City, which will continue to own the facility under Asper’s plan? How about the provincial and federal governments, who will pay for the majority of the building?
4. Is there a cost estimate for infrastructure, traffic or transit improvements that will have to be made to accommodate this development? Who will pay for these?
5. Bomber President Lyle Bauer recently claimed the costs for renovating Canad Inns Stadium would approach the cost of building new. Where is the detail on this Lyle? If we (the public) are expected to give you tens of millions for a new stadium, don’t we deserve to see all the relevant reports?
6. Why did public funding for a new arena — a far more useful public facility than a stadium — tear this city apart back in 1995, yet funding for the stadium isn’t getting one-tenth the reaction? Where are the lobby groups on both sides of the issue? Do we just not care anymore?
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Filed under: Uncategorized | Tagged: asper stadium, canad inns stadium, david asper, gary doer, sam katz, Vic toews, winnipeg blue bombers
Did the new arena itself really tear the city apart in 1995? As I recall, there was a bit of controversy ca. 1994, but in the end the arena issue was disposed of quietly as the politicos of the day lined up the cash, the MEC proposal was selected and bulldozers began clearing the land (where Canwest Park now sits).
Didn’t the dispute have more to do with team subsidies and who covered the losses?
1. They do not qualify as a charity. If I am mistaken it is a reflection on the sorry state of what is a charity and what is not.
2. It is true that he will likely lose some money on the Bombers. Would you prefer that we as a community group lost the money? If he loses money, yes that is quite legitimate, he can generally deduct those loses against gains elsewhere. Trouble is you need to make gains elsewhere. The business plan, to the degree it deals with the internal workings of Asper’s company is private and so it should be. Are you suggesting that you and everybody else would like to roll out their own profit and loss publicly?
3. This is where the guy is brilliant and he will probably kill me for saying so. Who gives a damn about the building? To a large degree, let the public and the team have infinite input and do almost anything they want with it. He does not own it and you had better ask yourself why!
4. The crowd size will remain somewhat similar and the traffic problem will not be much worse than it already is. Mind you, the additional retail is a traffic issue but the city in its infinite wisdom has never forced a retailer to expand the public artery that connects them otherwise the big boxes of the world would all be locating in Headingly. If you really want serious traffic trouble, why not go with Canad Inns proposal for Marion and Archibald?
5. Should Lyle be trusted or even be more forthcoming? Good point! Unfortunately the current governace structure never anticipated a shareholder revolt. Most non profits have a mechanism of disposing of an errant or crusading executive. Perhaps this should be pursued if the question of stakeholder consensus remains unresolved. On the other hand, if we accept him as leader, I think we are stuck with accepting his best judgment as that is what he is there for.
6. Again, interesting question but why should it tear us apart? Perhaps we trust Lyle or our politicians more today……hmmm possibly not. Perhaps we see civil engagement as more futile ……hmm maybe. Perhaps we like football more than hockey …. hmm ……check the difference in attendance ……I think we are more powerfully linked and touched by football …..Why? … might be an issue for another day
@anon – As I recall it (hazy as my memory might be), there was a fair bit of organized opposition to government funding for the new arena. There were also organized support groups, and the topic dominated the news for weeks. Granted, it was made much more urgent by the prospect of losing the team.
The issue of subsidies and losses is ultimately what killed the MEC proposal, as the Group of 40 (or however many there were) wouldn’t accept the risk, and the governments would not agree to take on the obligation for new owners (the province had already taken a bath on covering Shenkarow’s losses for several years).
@unclebob:
1. I do know that contributions to the City can be considered as charitable donations under certain circumstances. If Asper is giving money to a city-owned facility, does this qualify? I’m just posing the question, as I don’t know in this case.
2. My point here is that we really don’t know anything about this proposal, other than a powerpoint and a couple of flashy pictures. And when he’s asking for millions in free land and tax forgiveness from the city, and $80 million for the province/feds, then I think a significant amount of public disclosure is appropriate. We’re being asked to cover 2/3 to 3/4 the cost of this facility, and if our partner is going to enjoy great wealth by operating it, then we deserve a piece of the action. I’d like to avoid a repeat of the sweetheart deal negotiated by True North.
3. I’m not quite sure I understand your point here. As currently proposed, the building was designed by Asper and his architects. Who gives a damn? I do, as I wonder if we can’t build this thing for a lot less than what Asper suggests.
4. Asper’s proposal mentions a transit corridor and “improved traffic patterning on Empress”. I believe his fancy drawings also show St. Matthews as a fly-over of St. James. He’s moving the location of the stadium on the site and building a new retail complex. All of these could have infrastructure or traffic impacts. You’re right about the Marion site though.
5. I’ll leave the question of Bauer’s performance to others, I just want all the relevant information on the table.
6. I think the ambivalence can be partly explained by our province/country’s economic standing today compared to 1995. I wouldn’t disagree with the civil engagement is futile angle either though. As for hockey vs. football, it’s not even close. The Moose draw 100,000 more per season than the Bombers, an NHL team would more than double CFL attendance .
Froggie Thanks for the reply
1) You need a CCRA certificate to be a charity. Some non profits are also charities a but not many e.g. Universities …. the bulk of their activity is not but they have foundations which are and money gets funneled in that way. Could be done with the Bombers but a bit more doubtful.
2) The alternative remains to reject the offer and do it ourselves. There will be enough caveats to easily force this discussion but publicly? Maybe not. You are right about True North and that is what you get having a discussion between bureaucrats who want the private sector funding and smart business people who know when they have someone over a barrel…..guess who wins? I am not comfortable with the club doing the negotiating but even in most other government incentive programs the proponent is shielded. I think Vic Toews should ask for help but I doubt he will.
3) We probably could but it is his proposal not ours.
4) It is nice that he is considering broader traffic issues when almost every other developer tries to avoid them.
5) You might be right but, sorry, as currently structured, you are not entitled. If it were an environmental issue however you would be……could this be headed for a novel socio/economic environmental assessment?
6) At 30,000 per game it remains the biggest scheduled sports crowd gathering by game.
On point #5 perhaps we could convince Gary and Vic to allocate $100,000 to support a public discussion. You get $50,000 and I get $50,000 and we offer posts every day for two months. OK 45/45 and we save $10,000 for a mini Glen Murray party afterward!
BTW here is what we are running this week
THE STADIUM – TO BUILD OR NOT TO BUILD THAT IS THE QUESTION
This week we are going to weigh in on this difficult issue in favour of the Asper Proposal and below we explain why. Next week we will try to interview Asper himself. Right now everybody is watching the amount and timing of Federal commitment as it is critical to trigger the matching response from others.
We are duty bound to support the local boy. Like him or not he is ours and he could spend his loot elsewhere. It also sends an important message to other private sector money. Besides who else from out of town, would be crazy enough to do this?
If we don’t take his money, in order to pay for this we will be selling chocolate bars and lottery tickets for the next forty years.
The alternative location deals suck. Red River Ex isn’t central and if you think Polo Park traffic is bad, Marion would create completely irresolvable traffic problems.
There is no philosophical issue of big public money being spent on sports facilities. Numerous examples exist and, up against them, we would be crazy to go it alone.
Warm and fuzzy non profit management can never properly appreciate the need to fully satisfy the fans demand & the opportunity to extract money for value delivered. Only a guy like Asper is pig headed enough to charge those private boxes what they are really worth – left to a non profit committee, it just wouldn’t happen
Asper may have a little spite for the uppity MTS folk and this is healthy to harness
We have spent money on dumber things run by dumber people (Crocus anyone?)
Winnipeg’s psyche really needs a flag raising wherein we have something nationally significant ….not going to happen in the AHL or baseball ….CFL is the only option
Winnipeg needs to learn about having goals with vision and reach and be prepared to allocate resources to them – water and sewer we will always find money to fix, but right now, a national class stadium is a discretionary idea that takes us somewhere
At the end of the day it is the people’s money not the politicians. You decide what you want and it is the politician’s job to deliver for you. Tell them you will make them pay if they do not listen. The PCs are starting to get it but they need more prodding!
If for no other reason than shifting the Manitoba environment away from a proliferation of warm and fuzzy, ineffectual, non-profits to more active, responsive and creative partnerships on non core activities, it is worth supporting. What I would like to see however is a much better process of public participation in large, long term, infrastructure priority setting. Such a process would likely influence our civil involvement in a positive manner and I for one would be much more inclined to be tolerant of the outcome………………………….unclebob